ToV PDF Thoughts, Part 15

D&D 4E was like crack to those who played with dungeon tiles and figures. We did not see it as "D&D"—to us, it was an enjoyable dungeon tile and figure battle chess game.

Pathfinder 2 is a testament to the influence of D&D 4, a game that gamers have embraced. I still have my original PF2 books and may get back to them someday.

MCDM is relying on the D&D 4E feeling. I got my survey, and it is supposed to ship in December.

Level Up Advanced 5E includes a lot of the 4E secret sauce.

And those who know what made the game unique: We keep seeing these things come up repeatedly in the new 5E (and other game) implementations, and we smile because we know it is us they are speaking to. They are tapping into the feelings of the 2010s battle tabletop crowd.

The tough monsters, the warlord class, tactical movement, ritual spells, and the larger-than-life attitude with rule-of-cool art and panache.

4E was it.

Pathfinder 1e was D&D 3.5 and honored that legacy, so we played both.

We have Tales of the Valiant, and it feels very close to the 4E DNA, especially when I look at some of the creatures and how over-the-top and deadly they are. The ToV Orc has 25 hit points. In no world is that a thing unless you are talking about 4E.

Orcs in 4E were the monsters you stepped up to from levels 3 to 5. They were not level 1 monsters. Orcs were monsters you fought after you survived the lower levels, starting around level 5. You reached a point where you knew you could take on Orcs, and it was a good feeling.

While Level Up A5E is a good game, the orcs are more of the traditional old-school type with 10 hit points and feel like low-level enemies. The one thing 4E did right was try to "scale" enemy types up, the MMO influence, and this made Orcs cool mid-level bad guys and Goblins the starter enemies.

This is why Level Up Advanced 5E is still fun. This branch of 5E is more inspired by old-school ideas, while ToV is more modern and inspired by 4E, and maintains subclass and lineage compatibility the best. I have room for both, and they do things a little differently. LU is the more mod-heavy version with extra systems, while ToV is more mainstream with tweaks. Both are like "Skyrim mod total conversions," they share the same gameplay loop, so it is not that hard getting used to both of them.

ToV is the clean, streamlined, focused total conversion, LU is the 400+ mod install of 5E based on the "old school" mod. Once you buy the gazetteers and option books for Level Up, it is an excellent, huge, and expansive experience with many character options and ways those interact with the game's systems. While its compatibility is less than ToV's, it is still a fantastic game. Once you are bought in, you don't need too much else. You can convert in, but it takes more thought and work.

Both are excellent alternatives.