I was doing some thought experiments on the best game to use as a Dungeon Crawl Classics expansion, and I went over the normal ones from Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Old School Essentials and a few others. But one obvious one crossed my mind...
D&D 3.5E. These are still available, and the core books have PoD options, so it is an interesting combination of systems. There is even a nice SRD available, and the combination can be run for very low cost. Note, even though Pathfinder 1e is D&D 3.5E, I am sticking to the originals since there is less added "fluff" to the characters, like the force missiles wizards get for free. Pathfinder 1e is a "gimme" game, and it is modded to give everyone lots of cool powers. It gets way more complicated as a result, and that comes at a price.
DCC feels like a 3.5E set of rules. They preserve the Fort/Ref/Will saves. The class attack bonuses are in-line with 3.5E. The games feel and play very similarly.
So, why use the game as an expansion? Well, DCC says "steal a magic item system," so 3.5E does a good job of being that game. Another reason is for the monsters, since the attack values are close, the monsters should be usable, given the AC values.
"Should" is relative, since the AC values in 3.5E tend to start at DCC values, and then move up to about 5 points higher than DCC's monsters at the high end. DCC caps its levels at 10, and 3.5E goes up to 20, so the higher-level challenge needs to be there in 3.5E versus DCC. There is a "max level" difference between 3.5E and DCC that causes the values to skew off at higher levels. Where a giant has an AC of 20 in DCC, the same giant in 3.5E will be AC 25.
Also note, that the ability score modifiers are higher in 3.5E than in DCC, where in DCC a 15 is a +1 and a 16 is a +2; in 3.5E, a 15 is a +2, and a 16 is a +3. This makes a difference in to-hits and in general raises the AC values a few points between the games. If you use 3.5E monsters for DCC, AC and hit points in general should be about 20% less. Attack damage is about the same, though that could be 20% less, if you find it too hot. If a monster has multi attacks, those should be given dice down the chain as the action die, just to be fair (and to use all the dice).
So, as a "stuff book" 3.5E works for gear, magic items, and monsters - given a few tweaks and changes.
The 3.5E Mod for DCC
But what if you used DCC as the 3.5E game engine? This is using DCC to drive the game, but most all of 3.5E as the content. The parts of 3.5E we use are:
- Use 3.5E monsters, gear, and treasure, as-is.
- Use the 3.5E ability score modifiers.
- Use 3.5E's races, as-is, any race can be any DCC class.
- Use 3.5E character generation.
What parts of DCC do we use?
- DCC classes and spells are used.
- DCC combat is used.
- Spell burn, spell checks, divine power, spell duels, and all magic rules use DCC.
- The DCC engine runs the game.
So, what is not used?
- The 3.5E classes and spells are not used.
- Except for magic items and spell-like abilities.
- DCC's race-as-class is not used.
- Or it is optional, racial modifiers and abilities apply.
- The CR and encounter balancing system is not used.
It does not seem all that special, other than now using a tougher set of 3.5E monsters, along with higher ability score modifiers to offset the higher AC's and hit points. Well, there are two new additions to the game with this mod:
3.5E Feats
The DCC rulebook mentions adding a feat system. Well, this is how you get it! I may eliminate feats that impersonate the mighty deed of arms die, such as cleave. If you had cleave, it would probably let you do that without doing a mighty deed, and let your deed die add to attack and damage as usual.
Remember all characters get a feat at first level, and humans get a bonus feat. This will go a long way to helping to-hits with weapon focus and help bring down that higher AC, and the increased power should help with the more challenging monsters.
Also, remember that fighters get bonus combat feats according to their class chart. This will begin to make them very overpowered, but the monsters are far tougher in this mod, so it should balance out. Who knows? You aren't using the CR system anyway, so tough is relative.
You could just say, "A feat at level one and every even level," for all characters, and be fine.
3.5E Skills
This is optional, but it sounds really strange. You could use the 3.5E skill system, with a few modifications. Since the thief skills "are" 3.5E skills, being forced to buy them does not make sense, and it overwrites the DCC thief skills. So skills only as an option, and with these special rules:
- If a character has a skill given by a level, the modifier is as-is.
- No points need to be spent on these!
- Skill point costs are as-per 3.5E.
- The highest level of a skill is the one that counts.
- Use the 3.5E DC system and suggested difficulties.
So a lawful thief, with a +1 pick pocket skill in DCC, could but the 3.5E skill "sleight of hand" up to a +4 at level one, and have that as their "pick pocket" skill, overwriting the +1 innate to the DCC thief class. At level 4, this skill increases to a +7, and if the thief spent no more points on that skill, they would have a +7 (overwriting the lower of the two, the 3.5E skill level of +4).
That same character, if all they want to do is use their innate pick pocket skill in DCC, does not need to spend points to raise the 3.5E skill "sleight of hand" to that level, or spend any points at all on it, if they choose.
This will lead to thieves having a lot of skill points to spend, but it also reduces the need to have a high INT to have all those points to spend, which was a flaw of the 3.5E skill system. This also frees up points for knowledge, craft, and performance skills; since skills are not crucial to class abilities anymore. If a class gives you it, you get it, no points needed.
Normally, DCC has no use for a skill-system - everything is covered with ability checks. This lets you have an optional skill system that is not tied up in keeping class skills maxed out. Some classes will get new abilities (fighter and the class skill of climb, jump, ride, and swim) to spend points on. The characters will be a bit more heavy, but be able to interact with 3.5E adventures and skill challenges.
Also, note the skills search, spot, sense motive, and listen (all WIS) will become very important, since 3.5E has these "sensory skills" and DCC does not. These will often be untrained skills (in 3.5E a +0 modifier for skills, plus any ability modifiers), and work as normal.
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