The D&D 3.5E community is full of deep, labyrinthine, twisting rabbit holes. I get the feeling most of the hardcore 3.5E players want people to play other games, such as Pathfinder 2E and 5E. Just stay out of this amazing place, a secret club of those of us whole knew the time, knew the spirit of the game when this was created, and the confusing and overly complicated rules of D&D 3.5E serve to keep the idiots out.
And this is a cool place.
Even Pathfinder 1e seems sterilized and overly clean compare to this edition. Yes, Paizo used a lot of sex and edgy content to sell their game, but looking closer, they cleaned a lot of the edgier, more controversial, more taboo elements of 3.5E up. Pathfinder 1e feels remarkably mainstream compared to the original D&D 3.5E books, especially with what was done in the "evil" books in the system.
D&D 3.5E went to some dark places.
I found some of the original OGL sources that the Pathfinder 1e lore pulled from, and they cleaned a lot up, broke things up, sanitized the more abhorrent subjects, broke up key NPCs, and put everything that were in those system-neutral OGL books into little places in Golarion so they could own a version of them, and by default, own the idea.
There are two demons in the Book of Fiends (2003), by Green Ronin, Socothbenoth and his sister Nocticula, who are into all sorts of depraved things, and always at each other's side in their plane of Hell. When we meet him again in Pathfinder 1e's Book of the Damned (2017), they break the two apart, make them enemies, and link them tightly to the Golarion cosmology. Yes, they have an interesting story now, but I somehow feel they have been cleaned-up and co-opted. They get some amazing artwork, but they feel they have lost their edge and cool factor after they left D&D 3.5E.
These weren't official demons in the Wizards world, but they were resurrected for Pathfinder 1e, and seem to have lost what made them cool. Of course, these were pulled in by the OGL, so it is likely they are not even in the official canon anymore. I liked who they were, an almost wicked, evil, twisted version of "Team Rocket" that could show up and raise hell. Who they became in Pathfinder 1e felt like they were just another OGL thing ported into the massive gravitational pull of Paizo, cleaned up, and shoved somewhere in a junk drawer.
It was nice to see them again, but they had become gentrified and placed into Golarion. I preferred their original, put them in any world, raw and uncut versions.
Part of this is Paizo changing and becoming more progressive by 2017. The original 2003 source was written during different era, much more raw, explicit, and unfiltered. All of D&D 3.5E is like that, you will come across things that make you do a double-take; and in Pathfinder 1e, besides the occasional cheesecake picture (which are all gone these days), what we get is a safer version of what we had in D&D 3.5E.
And having these figures of ultimate evil is what D&D is all about. Even D&D 4E felt sanitized and cleaned up, like in the 2010s everyone changed, and the concept that there could be absolute evil in a fantasy world was done away with. Even in the 2017 Paizo book, the evil figures don't seem to be as truly evil as they once were, but just Skeletor-like cackling evildoers who have some redeeming qualities. They are too cool to be depraved and wicked at heart.
D&D 3.5E came from a different world, just pick up any videogame magazine between 2003 and 2008 and you will see where this came from. There are absolutes in this world, like every humanoid race being evil, worshipping demons, have their bodies twisted by dark magics, and being in perpetual war with the forces of good. It was more like Warhammer Fantasy, and less like Harry Potter and Cartoon Network.
Yes, parts of D&D 3.5E are horribly broken, complicated, and overly complex. The fights take forever. There are so many things which connect with other things.
But the game is a zenith of the era, and the scion of our time back then. It is the last bastion of D&D where evil was evil. Nothing was redefined and recontextualized for the audience. We didn't need filters. We didn't need some social theory ported into the game to prove a point, rally people to white knight behind, or make people angry for clicks. Social media? What's that?
We were all mature enough to handle it, having lived through 9/11 and seeing what true evil was, and what it did to the innocent. We earned the right to write and play this game, and to express ourselves freely and without fear. We were living in a world of good versus evil.
We were the good guys.
At least, until the unjustified wars broke out. Then we became the bad guys. We saw our games change from epic, brutal, difficult, and unfiltered expressions of our generation - to easy, gimme, overpowered, die-rolling daycare. Pathfinder 1e, D&D 4E, and D&D 5E were all colored-over, filtered, cleaned-up, and socially acceptable versions of the something raw and primal we had back then. Pathfinder 1e was the slow-drip of morphine that dulled our senses of the brutality and brilliance of D&D 3.5E.
Sorcerers and wizards had a d4 hit die. Rogues and bards had a d6. They were classes that died easy. This is D&D, not some overpowered pander game that gives you dozens of hit points at level one. In Pathfinder, nobody goes below a d6. This die-step adds up, and causes hit-point inflation. Combats will take longer, and damages need to start creeping up.
If somebody doesn't have a d4 hit die, it is not D&D.
The rules were complex. If you want to be in this hobby and play at a high level, you put in the time to learn and understand the rules. The game wasn't for everybody, nor was it designed to be. Being difficult meant that only the great players stuck around, and those were worth spending time with anyway. The rules were the gatekeepers, and this was a good thing. They were a built-in test of dedication and commitment. If you had the patience and dedication to learn how to play D & D 3.5E at a high level, then you could be reasonably counted on to show up every week to play.
You still see the same thing today in high-end MMO raiding or online FPS games. There is so much to learn; if you are not going to put in the time, don't be expected to be invited into the groups that play at that level. It isn't unfair; they put in the time, learned the high-end raids and FPS strategies, learned teamwork, and spent hundreds of hours perfecting what they do. Those expecting to waltz in knowing nothing won't stay around for long.
It isn't elitism or gatekeeping. It is expecting people to put in the time and learn. The great groups that replenish and last will take a little time to teach the new people. If I spend the time to play at an elite level, I expect everyone else to do the same. And I would teach others, too, to give them a chance. It is up to them to take it, and put in the work. Even knowing how to DM the game, avoid the broken parts, and know the exploits was a masterclass of knowledge and experience.
Even AD&D and AD&D 2e were not this deep, nor did they have this mastery built-in as deep as D&D 3.5E. This was a game designer by the original Magic: the Gathering designers, and they knew how to design a game to build system mastery into the entire product. This created an elite community of expert players and DMs. You sought these people out. This was their magnum opus, taking MtG, and turning into D&D, the game they destroyed in the 90s.
With Pathfinder, the streamlining and ease of play allowed more casuals in the door. Every edition of fantasy gaming has gotten worse since then; it is easier to play, more casual, not as deadly, and requires less commitment.
Also, like every version of Wizards D&D, level 10 and up never worked right. I don't know what it is—maybe they don't want to pay play testers or listen to feedback—but for 25 years, Wizards has never been able to deliver a balanced high-level game in any version of D&D—3.0, 3.5, 4, 5, and now 5.5.
If it is Wizard's D&D, high-level play will be broken. Live-patch things and get your ban lists ready. If something starts to get stupid, fix it with your players. Be mature.
There is a massive difference between optimized and non-optimized characters, and casters take over the game at level 10 and higher with minion spamming. But, if every version of Wizards D&D is horribly broken at the high levels, at least this one is less censored and silly than the versions we have today. It sets a low bar, but, hey, Wizards D&D has always sucked at high-level play.
Playing to level ten and quitting is always the best option for D&D. Pathfinder 2 is better for high-level campaigns since it was tested extensively.
